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Fix the Ferox

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Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.02.28 19:33:00 - [1] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Personally the resist bonus seems idiotic. The range bonus says it is a sniper. Why do you need resists when you're sniping? Why not give it a bonus that compliments the optimal range bonus? An in-built resist bonus means you need to fit less shield mods for a buffer tank which in turn frees up midslots for tracking computers and sensor boosters so you can maximise you range/tracking.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.02.28 19:40:00 - [2] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 28/02/2009 19:43:51 Originally by: Franga Originally by: Gneeznow ferox is badass as a blaster boat, 500 dps and nobody ever seems to see it coming until its too late, laser ferox also works wonders, 25km with scorch it owns pretty hard, hell even with 425 II autocannons and falloff rigs it kicks ass, ferox is a great turret ship I tend to agree with this. Blaster boat with just a 10MN AB. Yes, an AB. No-one seems to really care about it and leave it until last. Then when they see the killmail and the ferox is up near the top ... In small engagements the enemy might get close enough for your blasters to become effective but in larger fights you will spend most of your time chasing faster targets around while doing practically zero dps, which is not very useful. A blaster Ferox works ok vs slower ships (e.g BS) and also in situations where you land right on top of your target but this doesn't happen that often and even then there are other ships that work better in the same circumstances (e.g. Brutix, HAM Drake, 1600mm plated Hail Cane etc). When both mobility and range are needed, it sadly falls short. If you're going to argue about whether or not this ship is effective you need to examine it's specific (and unique amongst BCs) role. First and foremost, it's a fleet support sniper. The question should be, is it good enough as it is or does it need a boost?
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.03 11:55:00 - [3] Originally by: arbiter reformed remember it does more dps than a prophrecy with lazors, cyclone is also somwhat underwhelming not all ships should be good at the same thing Arguing that a Ferox is ok cos it's better than the 2 worst BCs in the game is pretty stupid. Both the Prophecy and Cyclone are useless except in PvE, so your comparison actually supports the argument to boost the Ferox for PvP.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.03 12:01:00 - [4] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 03/03/2009 12:03:59 Originally by: Dark Voynix NO .. not at all!!! You are not considering the "grid problem". You are supposing that the brutix can easilly put 7x neutron blastersand the ferox just 6, but this in unpractical( for both ships). Most brutix setups downgrade at least partially to ion/electrons, to be able to put that damned 7th gun. And as i said before: Since brutix is an armour tanker it have less PG for guns than the ferox, so the one more gun it can put in theory, can be practically used only if you downgrade all ( almost) the turrets. Note: im not saying that have 7 turrets is bad, im just saying that the difference between ferox and brutix is quite ephemeral because of PG restriction. The Brutix can easily fit a full rack of electron blasters and a very nice dual rep tank. It struggles to fit ions and can't fit neutrons. The Ferox can fit 250s and a tank with a single RCU. It can fit smaller guns quite easily so I think its grid is ok. However, its damage is pants. Adding a 7th turret without increasing the grid at all might be a balanced way to give it a boost as this would force you to either go for max damage+range (with 250s) and minimal/zero tank or drop down to 200mm rails to be able to fit a tank. This is pretty much the compromise that you currently need to make with the Eagle.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.03 12:09:00 - [5] Originally by: arbiter reformed ok but remember the tier 1 bcs are all lacking compared to there tier 2 counterparts, the ferox is a viable gunnery pvp ship, saying that its crap because its better than two of 4 tier 1 bcs is slightly odd methinks, and i never said it was worse than the brutix just that it was worse with blasters which is resonable imo Agreed. We aren't saying it's crap - it isn't. But it is a bit "meh". Personally I think the Prophecy and Cyclone need fixing more but while we're relooking at all T1 BCs we might aswell boost the Ferox a little bit to make it more worth flying. I think the Brutix is fine, it's an awesome ship, but for the sake of fairness it could be be given a minor boost too - dunno what tho. Anyway that's all OT. The point of this thread is does the Ferox need fixing and if so how? Is it broken? No, i don't think so. Could it use some love? Yes.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.03 12:42:00 - [6] Originally by: achoura The only person who actually mentioned best and worst was you which means that even if you're not consciously saying it, you've already classified them based on what you think is best flawing your own arguments. What? Originally by: achoura Moreover, saying that they useless for pvp only displays your ignorance (again flawing your arguments) of the ships you're attempting to "discuss". Their role may be severely limited, but the do work outside of pvp, if only in a limited fashion. Give me a PvP situation where you would pefer a Prophecy in your gang over a Harbi or a Cyclone instead of a Cane. I bet you can't. This is why they aren't useful for PvP. You can get kills in ANY ship in EvE but if there is no reason to fly it cos another ship does the job better then they won't get used much. This is a general problem for ship in EvE which don't have a well defined role. AFs had the same problem when compared with T1 cruisers and although the changes to warp scrams have made AFs more useful the problem still exists. The Rook also suffers from the same problem cos the Falcon does the same job better and the Rook doesn't offer anything signficantly different. Can you still use a Rook in PvP? Sure. Can you kill stuff in it? Sure. Would your FC prefer you in a Falcon? Definitely. Anyway this disucssion is supposed to be about the Ferox so this is my last post about other BCs.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.07 16:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 07/03/2009 16:32:45 Originally by: Kissapasi [Ferox, Bad Boy Setup] Nearly 500 dps, ability to hit to 20km+ with pretty good damage, ~80k ehp, ~150dps passive tank. I really fail to see the point of op, ferox is totally fine especially while it costs 20m in the market. The tank is very impressive but your DPS numbers are misleading. That setup with ALL LVL 5 SKILLS does only 455 DPS (including drones) when using AN MF which gives you an optimal of only 7km To be able to hit at 20km you must use Scorch which drops the DPS to 383. With equivalent skills a (1600mm plated) armor tanked Harbinger fitted with Focused Pulse lasers but only 2 Heat Sinks (i.e using 1 LESS damage mod) does 620 DPS with AN MF (same optimal) and 527 DPS with Scorch (same optimal). The Harbi can use medium drones so this is with Hammerhead IIs instead of Hobgoblin IIs. It has about 60k EHP. Also the setup you suggested will cost a lot more than the 20mill you paid for the ship. T2 mods and rigs will bring the total cost (ship + mods) to around 80mill. If you're going to fit a BC with rigs that cost 15mill each then spending an extra 15mill to buy a Harbinger instead makes more sense to me.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2009.03.07 20:40:00 - [8] Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 07/03/2009 20:42:33 Originally by: Kissapasi 5% Medium energy turret hardwiring is dirt cheap, so is 3% turret ROF/DAM. Use them. I do, however, you neglected to mention them in your setup. In any case, they would just boost the DPS of both ships so the comparison still stands. In case you missed it, my point was that a tank fitted Harbi easily outdamages a laser Ferox even when fitted with one less damage mod. A gank Harbi would do about double the DPS (but have a very poor tank)! Why use a laser Ferox with it's medicore DPS when you can use a Harbi and actually do some serious damage? Originally by: Kissapasi 1. Passive recharge, some people might appreciate self regenerating buffer instead of needing to dock and repair every time after combat if no remote repairing is present. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive A 1600mm plated Harbi can fit a MAR and Cap Injector so repairing is not an issue until you run out of 800s. Most fights don't last that long :) Originally by: Kissapasi 2. Passive recharge also works as a tank, a 150 dps peak on 80k buffer makes Ferox last long time especially if incoming dps is low. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive If the incoming dps is low (e.g 150dps) then most tanks can handle it anyway. Originally by: Kissapasi 3. If you got skills, you can overheat the invulnerablity field for some extra buffer/tank. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive You can also overheat a MAR. Originally by: Kissapasi 4. It's a Ferox, almost nobody will primary a Ferox. Originally by: Cletus Graeme The tank is very impressive Obvious question: what exactly is the point of such an impressive tank if nobody will primary you? Originally by: Kissapasi 5. Works even without rigs which will make the price difference even higher. You can also rig it with resistance rigs which are dirt cheap and still maintain a buffer tank of ~70k for a price of a plain Harbinger. Shield rigs are indeed much cheaper than Armor rigs and the Ferox is cheaper than the Harbi so COST is the most sensible reason to use a Ferox instead but tbh, i'd rather spend more ISK and be more useful to my gang. You can passively shield tank the Harbi too if you really want to but its shield tank is pretty poor so it's a bad idea when solo or in a small gang. IMO the Ferox needs to be a good SNIPER to be worth using in PvP. If it does this well then it doesn't need changing. If it doesn't then maybe it needs a boost.

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